Practice your English. Help and advice.

Regole del forum
Collegamenti al regolamento del forum in varie lingue ed alle norme sulla privacy in italiano.
Avatar utente
AdlerTS
cavalier del forum
cavalier del forum
Messaggi: 9561
Iscritto il: mar 27 dic 2005, 21:35
Località: mail: adlerts[at]email.it

Messaggio da AdlerTS »

Dear teachers :-)
Today I've got this question: in italian language the position of the adjective can change the meaning of the sentence.
For instance, if I say " ho incontrato un semplice ragazzo" is different from "ho incontrato un ragazzo semplice" , because the first says that I met just one boy instead of a group, the second one talks about the attitude of the guy.
Is it possible to have the same difference in english ?
Thanks a lot :P


Mal no far, paura no gaver.
Avatar utente
serlilian
distinto
distinto
Messaggi: 1697
Iscritto il: sab 10 mag 2008, 21:03
Località: T.L.T.

Messaggio da serlilian »

I think that in English you must use a different adjective, to show the difference. I think the adjective must always be before the name.


[i]Liliana[/i]
- . - . -
[size=75][i]"Quando comincia una guerra, la prima vittima è la Verità.
Quando la guerra finisce, le bugie dei vinti sono smascherate,
quelle dei vincitori, diventano Storia."
(A. Petacco - La nostra guerra)[/size][/i]
Avatar utente
PeterG
Vilegiante
Vilegiante
Messaggi: 135
Iscritto il: ven 6 ott 2006, 19:55
Località: Lincoln, UK

Messaggio da PeterG »

serlilian ha scritto:I think that in English you must use a different adjective, to show the difference. I think the adjective must always be before the name.
Heaven forbid! (which I assure you is quite different from 'Forbid Heaven'). :) But you are right about the adjective preceeding a noun.

To take the two examples "ho incontrato un semplice ragazzo" and "ho incontrato un ragazzo semplice"
In English this would be "I simply met a boy" and "I met a simple boy" .

But Italian is much less ambiguous. Take for example "I met a single man", here we would rely on tone of voice or context to give us the meaning, for it could mean "Ho incontrato un semplice uomo" or "Ho incontrato un uomo da solo" or "Ho incontrato un uomo che non era con una donna" oppure "Ho incontrato uno scapolo."

Which brings me to another topic. The hyphen.

Twenty odd men compared with Twenty-odd men. The first is a score of eccentrics, the second about tweny normal chaps.

Extra marital sex / Extra-marital sex The first is good news for both parties, the second probably isn't.

Two more examples:

They are very well known / A well-known writer
Sono ben conosciuti / Un noto scrittore

This wine is first class / A first-class wine
Questo vino è ottimo / Un vino di prima qualità

But as the great Fowler said, many years ago, The Hyphen is not an ornament, but an aid to being understood and should only be employed for that.

All these examples, by the way, are taken from a gem of a book Damp Squid - the English language laid bare by Jeremy Butterfield.

Peter :)


La posibilità sempre ghe xe.
Avatar utente
AdlerTS
cavalier del forum
cavalier del forum
Messaggi: 9561
Iscritto il: mar 27 dic 2005, 21:35
Località: mail: adlerts[at]email.it

Messaggio da AdlerTS »

Hyphen are not in use in italian language. Or better, not in traditional italian.
Now a days due to the massive use of english words we're starting using it.

Your translation from "semplice" into "simple" makes me smile because I would instinctively translate into "easy", but sometimes "semplice" and "facile" are synonymous, sometimes they are not : there's a certain difference between a "ragazza semplice" and a "ragazza facile" :-D


Mal no far, paura no gaver.
Avatar utente
PeterG
Vilegiante
Vilegiante
Messaggi: 135
Iscritto il: ven 6 ott 2006, 19:55
Località: Lincoln, UK

Messaggio da PeterG »

AdlerTS ha scritto:there's a certain difference between a "ragazza semplice" and a "ragazza facile" :-D
English is not quite as succinct; it requires a euphemism for the second.

A simple girl and a girl of easy virtue are at the opposite ends of the spectrum.

Peter


La posibilità sempre ghe xe.
Avatar utente
AdlerTS
cavalier del forum
cavalier del forum
Messaggi: 9561
Iscritto il: mar 27 dic 2005, 21:35
Località: mail: adlerts[at]email.it

Messaggio da AdlerTS »

It's me once again :-)
is it correct "where the treatments are to go" talking about a water proof treatment ?


Mal no far, paura no gaver.
dcobau
vilegiante
vilegiante
Messaggi: 92
Iscritto il: mar 3 gen 2006, 3:34

Messaggio da dcobau »

I believe it is correct:

treatment is to
treatments are to

but it depends on the context of the frase and to what the verb is referring to. eg.

the class of treatments is (the verb is referring to the class which is singular).

ciao

Dave


Avatar utente
AdlerTS
cavalier del forum
cavalier del forum
Messaggi: 9561
Iscritto il: mar 27 dic 2005, 21:35
Località: mail: adlerts[at]email.it

Messaggio da AdlerTS »

Why not "treatments have to go" ? :roll:


Mal no far, paura no gaver.
Avatar utente
macondo
Distinto
Distinto
Messaggi: 2669
Iscritto il: dom 25 dic 2005, 18:54
Località: London, UK

Messaggio da macondo »

It seems to me to be another case where the word is better employed in singular than in plural. I don't quite know the rationale behind such an use, but certain words in English are used almost exclusively in singular.
For instance: information, software, hardware, people ecc.
Treatment looks like one of them as the word on itself means a combination of different acts or actions...


Avatar utente
PeterG
Vilegiante
Vilegiante
Messaggi: 135
Iscritto il: ven 6 ott 2006, 19:55
Località: Lincoln, UK

Messaggio da PeterG »

'Treatment', for a medical condition, includes all medicines, diets, operations, etc.

In this sense an example would be 'The treatment for his condition was successful'.

'Treatment', in the sense of repairs (building, car, house, etc) includes all remedial action.

Macondo is quite correct. It is always used as a singular collective noun: The prescribed treatment is ...


La posibilità sempre ghe xe.
Avatar utente
macondo
Distinto
Distinto
Messaggi: 2669
Iscritto il: dom 25 dic 2005, 18:54
Località: London, UK

Messaggio da macondo »

From wikipedia, to make things a bit more complicated: :roll:

Two good examples of collective nouns are "team" and "government," which are both words referring to groups of (usually) people. Both "team" and "government" are count nouns.... However, confusion often stems from the fact that plural verb forms can often be used with the singular forms of these count nouns (for example: "The team have finished the project"). Conversely, singular verb forms can often be used with nouns ending in "-s" that were once considered plural (for example: "Physics is my favorite academic subject"). This apparent "number mismatch" is actually a quite natural and logical feature of human language, and its mechanism is a subtle metonymic shift in the thoughts underlying the words.


Ursus Canadiensis
ixolan
ixolan
Messaggi: 371
Iscritto il: ven 16 gen 2009, 19:04
Località: BC, Canada

Messaggio da Ursus Canadiensis »

Hello Macondo:

Has Wikipedia given you the impression it "often" like repeating adverbs.... say words like, often?

Just a thought. I don't know why it popped to my mind so unexpectedly.


Arnie


If at first you don't succeed, try reading the instruction manual.
Avatar utente
macondo
Distinto
Distinto
Messaggi: 2669
Iscritto il: dom 25 dic 2005, 18:54
Località: London, UK

Messaggio da macondo »

Arnie Coburg ha scritto:Hello Macondo:

Has Wikipedia given you the impression it "often" like repeating adverbs.... say words like, often?

Just a thought. I don't know why it popped to my mind so unexpectedly.


Arnie
I can see why. In the above extract the adverb often has been repeated three times :roll:


Avatar utente
PeterG
Vilegiante
Vilegiante
Messaggi: 135
Iscritto il: ven 6 ott 2006, 19:55
Località: Lincoln, UK

Messaggio da PeterG »

macondo ha scritto:Two good examples of collective nouns are "team" and "government," which are both words referring to groups of (usually) people.
This is not quite the same as treatment. We can speak of several teams and any number of governments. In contrast we would have to say that there are several ways of administering the treatment, or the treatment takes various forms, rather than the treatments take various forms.


La posibilità sempre ghe xe.
Avatar utente
Ghisela
Vilegiante
Vilegiante
Messaggi: 163
Iscritto il: mar 20 gen 2009, 21:21
Località: Villach / Austria

Messaggio da Ghisela »

Hi everybody,

I need a proper repeat of my English !
A long time ago it was better than my Italian !
As I am always speaking italian, I am forgetting the vocabolaries !

A shame because I learnd 8 long years English at school !
So I am glad to have the possibility to use it here !


Saluti Ghisela Immagine

Home is where you park it ! Immagine
Avatar utente
serlilian
distinto
distinto
Messaggi: 1697
Iscritto il: sab 10 mag 2008, 21:03
Località: T.L.T.

Messaggio da serlilian »

Welcome Ghisela,
I'm glad to practice my English too. Let's wait our teachers. :-D


[i]Liliana[/i]
- . - . -
[size=75][i]"Quando comincia una guerra, la prima vittima è la Verità.
Quando la guerra finisce, le bugie dei vinti sono smascherate,
quelle dei vincitori, diventano Storia."
(A. Petacco - La nostra guerra)[/size][/i]
Avatar utente
AdlerTS
cavalier del forum
cavalier del forum
Messaggi: 9561
Iscritto il: mar 27 dic 2005, 21:35
Località: mail: adlerts[at]email.it

Messaggio da AdlerTS »

Immediately comes a question :-)
serlilian ha scritto:I'm glad to practice my English too.
I would say "I'm glad to practice my English as well."

What's better ?


Mal no far, paura no gaver.
Avatar utente
serlilian
distinto
distinto
Messaggi: 1697
Iscritto il: sab 10 mag 2008, 21:03
Località: T.L.T.

Messaggio da serlilian »

I think it's the same thing. Eventhough I feel the first sentence as "Me too (I'm glad to practice English)" and the second one as "I'm glad to learn (French and) English as well". :lol:


[i]Liliana[/i]
- . - . -
[size=75][i]"Quando comincia una guerra, la prima vittima è la Verità.
Quando la guerra finisce, le bugie dei vinti sono smascherate,
quelle dei vincitori, diventano Storia."
(A. Petacco - La nostra guerra)[/size][/i]
Avatar utente
Ron
ixolan
ixolan
Messaggi: 244
Iscritto il: mer 4 ott 2006, 7:10
Località: London, England

"Glad" or "Happy" ?

Messaggio da Ron »

Gentlemen

I've been waiting for Peter to make his usual beneficial comment but, until he does, I thought you might like to see this thread on an "Answers" forum.
http://au.answers.yahoo.com/question/in ... 336AAtGWog

Regards

Ron


As a British soldier, I was stationed in the Trieste area from October 1945 until January 1947
Avatar utente
serlilian
distinto
distinto
Messaggi: 1697
Iscritto il: sab 10 mag 2008, 21:03
Località: T.L.T.

Messaggio da serlilian »

Interesting, eventhough the question was about "too" and "as well".

But a lady told, in another topic:

"Even in England English they shouldn't of said it.
I'm English and I would of said "They were"
Dyslexic people often get them two mixed up maybe you've just been with them lol

But no England English you should of said were"


... should of said... ???

OMG! I've never seen it.[/b]


[i]Liliana[/i]
- . - . -
[size=75][i]"Quando comincia una guerra, la prima vittima è la Verità.
Quando la guerra finisce, le bugie dei vinti sono smascherate,
quelle dei vincitori, diventano Storia."
(A. Petacco - La nostra guerra)[/size][/i]

Torna a “English section”