English words in Triest
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- AdlerTS
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- Messaggi: 9561
- Iscritto il: mar 27 dic 2005, 21:35
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English words in Triest
Dear all,
you probably know that the triestin language is mixed up from italian, slovinian, german, french and other languages: also English !
I've seen some time ago that the word cotola, that means skirt, came from the english "coat". It's also in use as kotula in the slovinian closest area.
My grandma uses the word dazol as a "tag question". Now I understand that it's probably her version of "that's all"
I think that we can enlarge this list
you probably know that the triestin language is mixed up from italian, slovinian, german, french and other languages: also English !
I've seen some time ago that the word cotola, that means skirt, came from the english "coat". It's also in use as kotula in the slovinian closest area.
My grandma uses the word dazol as a "tag question". Now I understand that it's probably her version of "that's all"
I think that we can enlarge this list
Language problems
Ciao
I hope you will forgive my digressing with a joke but I can't help thinking it is not unlike your "dazol" remark.
The scene is a Jewish wedding reception.
Sarah says to her nine year old daughter "Why don't you go over and have a chat with Grandma...she's sitting there all on her own"
The young girl crosses over the hall, chats with her Grandma and eventually returns to her mother.
"Did you have a nice chat" says Sarah
"Very nice" says the child "but what does fornication mean ?"
A shocked Sarah storms over to her mother and says
" Mum, how could you....telling a young child about fornication !"
Grandma replies " What's all the fuss about ?"
"All I said was 'for'n occasion like dis they should have had smoked salmon'!"
Ciao
Ron
I hope you will forgive my digressing with a joke but I can't help thinking it is not unlike your "dazol" remark.
The scene is a Jewish wedding reception.
Sarah says to her nine year old daughter "Why don't you go over and have a chat with Grandma...she's sitting there all on her own"
The young girl crosses over the hall, chats with her Grandma and eventually returns to her mother.
"Did you have a nice chat" says Sarah
"Very nice" says the child "but what does fornication mean ?"
A shocked Sarah storms over to her mother and says
" Mum, how could you....telling a young child about fornication !"
Grandma replies " What's all the fuss about ?"
"All I said was 'for'n occasion like dis they should have had smoked salmon'!"
Ciao
Ron
As a British soldier, I was stationed in the Trieste area from October 1945 until January 1947
English words
Good day to all !
There are two expressions which are supposed to have english origin, taken down from sailors calling Trieste in the old times : When addressing to someone and the name name is unknown " Hey Franz" is the corruption of " Friends" and " dame un bic' de vin " "Gimme a BIT of wine "- Bye Bye .John Paul Potter
There are two expressions which are supposed to have english origin, taken down from sailors calling Trieste in the old times : When addressing to someone and the name name is unknown " Hey Franz" is the corruption of " Friends" and " dame un bic' de vin " "Gimme a BIT of wine "- Bye Bye .John Paul Potter
...guera jera ,poco se magnava, Francesco Giuseppe Imperator e dopo de lu solo pajazi !
(Manlio Malabotta)
(Manlio Malabotta)
Post subject
John Paul Potter I think you are using a bit immaginative fantasy here, it is only your name that sounds English, " A bich de vin o de acqua o de quel che vol" iera usado a Trieste assai prima che vegni i Inglesi, e tuti sa che "Franz" xe "Francesco" in Tedesco o Sloven e no ga gnente de far con "Friend" Ciao Coce
La vita
Piu' che la pendi
Piu' la rendi
Piu' che la pendi
Piu' la rendi
- sono piccolo ma crescero
- cavalier del forum
- Messaggi: 8849
- Iscritto il: ven 11 mag 2007, 14:08
- Località: Trieste
There is a latin mot warning against easy etymology: "Lucus a non lucendo" (lucus=wood, non lucendo=it is dark). I do not know whether bich comes from English "bit" or, following M. Doria, from German "Biss - bisschen" (to bite) or from Slovenian "bic" (lash), or from Croatian "bice", a drink.
In my opinion the evolution of a language is a rather involved matter and even the ethymologies we read in the dictionaries are often questionable.
For instance the Roman slang word "mignotta" comes from the latin sentence "filius m. ignotae" written in the parrish baptism registers, as everybody will tell you in Rome, or from French "mignon", as every dictionary tells? Keep all dear? (it is not English, it is the sentence "Chi pol dir", who can tell it, written so that an English speaker reads it correctly )
In my opinion the evolution of a language is a rather involved matter and even the ethymologies we read in the dictionaries are often questionable.
For instance the Roman slang word "mignotta" comes from the latin sentence "filius m. ignotae" written in the parrish baptism registers, as everybody will tell you in Rome, or from French "mignon", as every dictionary tells? Keep all dear? (it is not English, it is the sentence "Chi pol dir", who can tell it, written so that an English speaker reads it correctly )
Afraid not, 'mignotta' isn't directly from Latin, corrupted or otherwise. Meaning squaldrina, bagascia, puttana, it is from the Old French mignotte the femminine of mignot, from which mignon 'favoured', all ultimately from minet 'cat'sono piccolo ma crescero ha scritto:For instance the Roman slang word "mignotta" comes from the latin sentence "filius m. ignotae" written in the parrish baptism registers, as everybody will tell you in Rome
La posibilità sempre ghe xe.
My father used the word "bìsniss", probably coming from "business", but not meaning "commercio". I'm not sure what he meant, perhaps some people that chatted and argued.
Xe nato bisniss = they quarreled
Xe nato bisniss = they quarreled
[i]Liliana[/i]
- . - . -
[size=75][i]"Quando comincia una guerra, la prima vittima è la Verità.
Quando la guerra finisce, le bugie dei vinti sono smascherate,
quelle dei vincitori, diventano Storia."
(A. Petacco - La nostra guerra)[/size][/i]
- . - . -
[size=75][i]"Quando comincia una guerra, la prima vittima è la Verità.
Quando la guerra finisce, le bugie dei vinti sono smascherate,
quelle dei vincitori, diventano Storia."
(A. Petacco - La nostra guerra)[/size][/i]
Sono piccolo and Peter G. Having just rediscovered this section which I had thought had been discontinued (comes from senile dementia seeing how old I have become!) may I be permitted to insert a small comment on this word 'mignotta'. Surely the phrase quoted in Latin - filius m.ignotae - means much the same as what used to be once upon a time used in Italy on birth certificates - NN - padre ignoto. Not knowing any Latin (ignorant man!) it does appear to me to indicate that the child is of unknown parentage. Just a thought to keep the argument going.
Larry
Larry
Auld acquaintance should ne'er be forgot
For the sake of auld lang's syne
For the sake of auld lang's syne
Yes, Larry.
"filius" = child
m. for "mater" = mother
"ignotae" = unknown
"filius" = child
m. for "mater" = mother
"ignotae" = unknown
[i]Liliana[/i]
- . - . -
[size=75][i]"Quando comincia una guerra, la prima vittima è la Verità.
Quando la guerra finisce, le bugie dei vinti sono smascherate,
quelle dei vincitori, diventano Storia."
(A. Petacco - La nostra guerra)[/size][/i]
- . - . -
[size=75][i]"Quando comincia una guerra, la prima vittima è la Verità.
Quando la guerra finisce, le bugie dei vinti sono smascherate,
quelle dei vincitori, diventano Storia."
(A. Petacco - La nostra guerra)[/size][/i]
Hello Larry !
Hi Larry
Are you the self same "Larry of Southgate" of whom I was informed when I first alighted on this site ?
If you are Sir, I am delighted to make your aquaintance and as someone else who never learned Latin (having left school at the age of 13) we can together still attempt to educate and amuse the rest of the good people on this forum.
Auguri !
Ron
Are you the self same "Larry of Southgate" of whom I was informed when I first alighted on this site ?
If you are Sir, I am delighted to make your aquaintance and as someone else who never learned Latin (having left school at the age of 13) we can together still attempt to educate and amuse the rest of the good people on this forum.
Auguri !
Ron
As a British soldier, I was stationed in the Trieste area from October 1945 until January 1947
Larry
My point was that mignotta is not derived from filius.m.ignotae, it derives from an Old French word.
In any event, what is filius.m.ignotae supposed to mean? It is very bad Latin. Filius means boy and does not require a qualifying 'm'. It can hardly stand for mater as the mother of a child is always known. It most certainly cannot be an abbreviation for masculus for that word is only used for male animals, the word used for human males is virilis.
But even if it were poor medieval Latin that some priests used, to refer to a girl it would have to be filia.f.ignotae, and presumably we would have ended up with fignotta instead of mignotta.
Finally, in Latin ignotus when it referred to people means 'of humble origin', as in mulier ignota a woman of humble birth. For a child, male or female, it would be ignotae originis (di umili origini).
My point was that mignotta is not derived from filius.m.ignotae, it derives from an Old French word.
In any event, what is filius.m.ignotae supposed to mean? It is very bad Latin. Filius means boy and does not require a qualifying 'm'. It can hardly stand for mater as the mother of a child is always known. It most certainly cannot be an abbreviation for masculus for that word is only used for male animals, the word used for human males is virilis.
But even if it were poor medieval Latin that some priests used, to refer to a girl it would have to be filia.f.ignotae, and presumably we would have ended up with fignotta instead of mignotta.
Finally, in Latin ignotus when it referred to people means 'of humble origin', as in mulier ignota a woman of humble birth. For a child, male or female, it would be ignotae originis (di umili origini).
La posibilità sempre ghe xe.
Ron, I must plead guilty. I am that Larry Southgate and as a matter of fact I did once live in Southgate in London when I worked in the War Office.. I, too, served in Trieste from October 46 to Feb 47 and again from September 48 to September 53. But does your name figure on the list of members of the Betfor Association? And does that of Peter G from Lincoln? We have our own web-site for the Betfor Association and the address finishes with .org. But what a surprise I got last weekend when, after having posted something else in other pages of this forum, I typed in by mistake: www.betforassociazione.org and was immediately directed to this page by google. I had intended to type the word 'associazione' in English but it was late and I had nearly finished a large Scotch on the rocks, the eyes were blurred, , have a try yourself, using google!
Anyway, I'll look in on this page occasionally now I have rediscovered it if only to help piccolo ma crescero (and Adler!?) with his English which I believe I speak fairly well having used it for over 80 years, although claiming that Italian is my second language with French nowadays a poor third.
Larry
Larry
Anyway, I'll look in on this page occasionally now I have rediscovered it if only to help piccolo ma crescero (and Adler!?) with his English which I believe I speak fairly well having used it for over 80 years, although claiming that Italian is my second language with French nowadays a poor third.
Larry
Larry
Auld acquaintance should ne'er be forgot
For the sake of auld lang's syne
For the sake of auld lang's syne
Serlilian. Mi da l'impression che sei femminile oooops sorry, from your nickname I get the idea I am speaking to a female and having had a squint atyour profile with the web-address including 'marina' I'm convinced. I note also that you have - Interests - Tanti'. Ben, saro a Trieste in giugno dal 10 al 21 con altri dalla nostra BETFOR Association. Ooops again! sorry! Many interests! OK, I will be in Trieste in June from 10 till 21 with others from our BETFOR Association. I'm booked into a B&B in Via Battisti 18 - 5th floor. Thanks for your confirmation of my understanding of that Latin phrase, (which I notice Peter G has also commented on up above). There maybe one or two birth certificates around Europe(ivi compreso l'Italia) with that phrase on of which I could be guilty but the fruits of war would be my excuse!!!
Larry Good night and sweet dreams (I wonder why in English it is always 'sweet dreams' whilst in Italian tis always 'golden dreams').
Larry Good night and sweet dreams (I wonder why in English it is always 'sweet dreams' whilst in Italian tis always 'golden dreams').
Auld acquaintance should ne'er be forgot
For the sake of auld lang's syne
For the sake of auld lang's syne
Larry
Now that you seem to have found your way back to this forum I've no doubt we will "talk" again.
ps
Are you in touch with Maria (she being the reason I was originally involved on this site) if so, please pass on my good wishes.
Ron
Sorry, but I was never involved with BETFOR as I was already involved in many other forums & Blogs and (I think) neither was Peter.But does your name figure on the list of members of the Betfor Association? And does that of Peter G from Lincoln?
Now that you seem to have found your way back to this forum I've no doubt we will "talk" again.
ps
Are you in touch with Maria (she being the reason I was originally involved on this site) if so, please pass on my good wishes.
Ron
As a British soldier, I was stationed in the Trieste area from October 1945 until January 1947
Yes, Larry. I'm a lady. My name is Liliana. I would be very glad to meet you and your comrades on June.Larry ha scritto: Serlilian. Mi da l'impression che sei femminile oooops sorry, from your nickname I get the idea I am speaking to a female and having had a squint atyour profile with the web-address including 'marina' I'm convinced. I note also that you have - Interests - Tanti'. Ben, saro a Trieste in giugno dal 10 al 21 con altri dalla nostra BETFOR Association. Ooops again! sorry! Many interests! OK, I will be in Trieste in June from 10 till 21 with others from our BETFOR Association. I'm booked into a B&B in Via Battisti 18 - 5th floor. Thanks for your confirmation of my understanding of that Latin phrase, (which I notice Peter G has also commented on up above). There maybe one or two birth certificates around Europe(ivi compreso l'Italia) with that phrase on of which I could be guilty but the fruits of war would be my excuse!!!
Larry Good night and sweet dreams (I wonder why in English it is always 'sweet dreams' whilst in Italian tis always 'golden dreams').
I live in Viale Venti Settembre, very close to your B&B.
There are some museums in Triest that could be interesting for old (but still young) soldiers: "Museo del Risorgimento", near Piazza Oberdan
http://www.retecivica.trieste.it/triest ... efault.asp
and "Civico Museo di guerra per la pace Diego de Henriquez" (Museum of war for peace Diego de Henriquez)
http://www.immaginidistoria.it/luoghi1.php?id=16
See you soon!
[i]Liliana[/i]
- . - . -
[size=75][i]"Quando comincia una guerra, la prima vittima è la Verità.
Quando la guerra finisce, le bugie dei vinti sono smascherate,
quelle dei vincitori, diventano Storia."
(A. Petacco - La nostra guerra)[/size][/i]
- . - . -
[size=75][i]"Quando comincia una guerra, la prima vittima è la Verità.
Quando la guerra finisce, le bugie dei vinti sono smascherate,
quelle dei vincitori, diventano Storia."
(A. Petacco - La nostra guerra)[/size][/i]
Serlilian - So we must meet for an ice-cream in Viale 20 one evening. However, I must disappoint you as far as museums and art galleries are concerned. I do NOT go to museums (unless dragged in protesting by a lady-friend) and art leaves me stone cold so do not go to art-galleries either. At one time I worked in the War Office in Whitehall, London, about 2/300 metres from the British National Art Gallery yet never paid a visit, nor to the Victoria and Albert Museum a few more metres away. Yes, I did once visit the museum in Trieste (in the Via Cavanna?) with my wife, but left after about 10 minutes bored stiff. LIFE is much more interesting. What happened in the past is dead and gone, let it rest, not collect it. If people ever learnt anything from history we would not be in the mess in the world that we are in today. If somebody wants to paint a picture and frame it, OK. Whatever turns them on. Just do not expect me to look at it and murmur 'he's a genius'. He/she is NOT. They are just people who like to paint. Full stop. And yes, I have visited the Vatican City in Rome. I even had my photograph taken inside in the garden in 1946. I have walked over the Ponte Vecchio in Florence but NOT visited the Pitti and other places, I have climbed all the steps to the top of the Leaning Tower, and, yes, to my delight, I have been once or twice in the past to the Bastioni Fioriti in San Giusto. (jera un night).
Too many beautiful ladies in Italy (and other places), much more interesting than some smelly old museum or art gallery!!!!!!!
Larry
Too many beautiful ladies in Italy (and other places), much more interesting than some smelly old museum or art gallery!!!!!!!
Larry
Auld acquaintance should ne'er be forgot
For the sake of auld lang's syne
For the sake of auld lang's syne
Ron, I have to confess that I cannot recall to memory Maria. "Say it loud and it's almost like singing, say it soft and it's almost like praying" as the song goes. Give me a call on my email - veccio at sky dot com and fill me in please. But you really should join the Association. There are over 300 of us now in the associaton. Nothing much to do. We have a reunion once a year and the occasional small get-together in various parts of the UK. We publish a journal 3/4 times a year in which photos of some of the lads appear in Trieste from the old days. Cost you a tenner a year that's all. What unit were you with? 1946/47 I was with the 1st Welch up in Opicina, then from 48 to 53 I was with Betfor Signals in Via Donadoni. With so much water under the bridge since we were all there we should really call ourselves the Betfor Geriatrics Association. If Peter G reads this and if he was also a part of Betfor he too could join us in keeping the flame alight and the Alabarda pointing to the stars.
Cheers, Larry
Cheers, Larry
Auld acquaintance should ne'er be forgot
For the sake of auld lang's syne
For the sake of auld lang's syne