Practice your English. Help and advice.

[serlilian]

Found. !

In English there often are two words to say almost the same thing:

jail (is it American? and the British English word is: gaol?) and prison
liberty and freedom
and so on

I have heard that more educated people prefer words of Latin origin (may I say instead: "Latin origin words"?).

I have generally seen "Liberty bell" (not "Freedom bell") and "Fighting for freedom". You may use one word or the other, or there is some subtle difference among them?

[PeterG]

In English there often are two words to say almost the same thing:

jail (is it American? and the British English word is: gaol?) and prison
liberty and freedom
and so on

I have heard that more educated people prefer words of Latin origin (may I say instead: "Latin origin words"?).

English is rich in synonyms, but then so is Italian and every other language. jail can be equated with carcere and prison with prigione, all are interchangeable.

As for gaol and jail, both are pronounced exactly the same, they merely differ in spelling, interestingly jail, as many people mistakenly believe, is not an American modern form of spelling gaol, both developed from two concurrent forms of Middle English.

Gaol probably from before 1300 from Old French and Anglo-French gaiole, gayole, gaole; and jail, jaiole, jaile before 1325 in Cursor Mundi.

All the French forms had the meaning of cage or prison from the Vulgar Latin gaviola from Latin caveala (small cage).

As to the other point you raise, I am not aware that educated people prefer words of Latin origin. Most people are not interested in etymology and simply adopt current usage. It is however true, I believe, that educated people of any nationality have a richer vocabulary than the less educated.

PeterG

[macondo]

PeterG would probably extend with examples about the correct use of the words liberty and freedom. I do believe that basically both means the same: libertá.

However, in the common language liberty has a slightly negative meaning. For instance, You took a liberty...
A phrase also used in Italian: Ti sei preso una libertá [una licenza].

[AdlerTS]

However, in the common language liberty has a slightly negative meaning.

This means that the Statue of Liberty has a slightly negative meaning ?

[macondo]

Possibly

[PeterG]

PeterG would probably extend with examples about the correct use of the words liberty and freedom. I do believe that basically both means the same: libertá.

However, in the common language liberty has a slightly negative meaning. For instance, You took a liberty...
A phrase also used in Italian: Ti sei preso una libertá [una licenza].

You are asking a lot, Macondo. In discussing these two you are entering a minefield.

As a matter of interest I googled What is the difference between freedom and liberty? and got 2,400,000 hits. You may find these two of interest:

http://www.samizdata.net/blog/archives/005081.html

http://www.wehaitians.com/what%20we%20a ... 20for.html

All, no doubt, thought provoking but at a less esoteric level, Freedom is the more general word: “In giving freedom to the slave, we assure freedom to the free” (Abraham Lincoln); "A world founded on four essential freedoms ..." (Franklin D. Roosevelt).

Liberty stresses the power of free choice: “liberty, perfect liberty, to think, feel, do just as one pleases” (William Hazlitt).

And both, as you rightly say, mean libertá.


But both can have negative connotations, particularly liberty, when the are equated with licence and licentious behaviour, the freedom to do as we wish to the detriment of others, for example, drunken behaviour.

A word derived from liberty is liberal now used to describe political orientation. For example in Britain we have the Liberal Party, a respectable centre democratic party. Unfortunately in America and Canada liberal is now equated with socialist (in the worse sense), indeed right-wing Republicans and Fundamentalist Christians equate it with atheism and outright communism.

PeterG

[serlilian]

Many thanks for answers and for interesting links.

[AdlerTS]

I do believe that basically both means the same: libertá.

Going back to the statue, I think that in the USA they've got two different statues. one is called "of liberty" and the other one is "of freedom".

[PeterG]

Going back to the statue, I think that in the USA they've got two different statues. one is called "of liberty" and the other one is "of freedom".

The Statue of Liberty was a gift from France to the American people. It's official title was, and still is, 'Liberty Enlightening the World' (in the original French: La liberté éclairant le monde). This is the reason the word Liberty was used, rather than Freedom

PeterG

[PeterG]

There are, as you know, many English words in Italian. But it is not a one way street, English is rich in Italian words

Two fairly recent Italian imports are bimbo (plural bimbos), to describe an attractive but empty headed young woman, and scenario (plural scenarios) for a predictable sequence of events, and of course the ubiquitous ciao

Both Americans and British speakers are quite oblivious to the fact that bimbo is a baby boy and that if they want to apply it to a girl it should be bimba since the very last thing these girls look like are boys. Also it grates on my ear to hear scenario pronounced as seenar-io. Ciao is pronounced correctly but never used correctly, only as a form of goodbye, never as a greeting.

There are similar howlers in Italian of course. A while back an Italian friend said that her son was going to a night, at first I didn't realise she meant that he was going to a club, night being a truncation from nightclub. English speakers have truncated it the other way and talk of going clubbing.

Fascinating things, languages.

PeterG

[serlilian]

I have been in Ireland last month, in an organised tour.
I've seen that they started to use italian words for different drinks with some coffee in them.
Latte, that means milk and comes from our caffelatte=coffee and milk. It is a big glass filled with a very loooooong coffee and some milk.
Capuccino hasn't anything to do with ours. It's made using a lot of water, while in Triest we put an espresso in a small cup or in a small glass and pour some hot milk on it.

[macondo]

Other Italian words that are commonly used in the English language are bravo, when applauding a musical feat and [dining] al fresco when having a supper at a table outside a restaurant (that, thanks to the global warming, has become less unusual even in our colder and wetter enviroment...)

[Ron]

Mac

You might also mention the word 'Sympatico' which is used, in my view anyway, to convey exactly the same as it's Italian meaning.

Ron

[PeterG]

Other Italian words that are commonly used in the English language are bravo, when applauding a musical feat ...

Recently we had a programme on BBC teaching celebrities, both men and women, how to conduct an orchestra in four weeks; it was called 'Maestro'. Some of the women were quite good and the presenter invariably praised them with 'Bravo!', with similar praise from the judges.

In the final week one of the judges was replaced by the Russian violin virtuoso (another Italian word used in English) Maxim Vergerov, the only one to say to one of the outstanding women 'Brava, you are a born maestra!'

PeterG

[PeterG]

Mac

You might also mention the word 'Sympatico' which is used, in my view anyway, to convey exactly the same as it's Italian meaning.

Ron

The Italian word imported into English is simpatico, the 'y' spelling is in sympathy (the sharing of emotion, especially sorrow or pity) but not in simpatico. Interestingly, although there is no letter 'Y' in Latin except to transcribe Greek words, it was written as sympathia in Latin, from the original Greek sympatheia, from sym (together) and pathos (sentiment). The Italian simpatico in English dates from the late 19th century.

It is used as an adjective and as a noun in Italian and has a much richer meaning than it has in English: Non è bella, ma è simpatica (she isn't pretty, but she has a charming personality); quel tuo amico è un gran simpatico (that friend of yours is a great chap), and of course in Italian we use its antonym: dovrei essere così antipatico con lui? (must you be so disagreeable with him?); questo lavoro mi è antipatico (I find this work is so tedious).

Simpatico is used in exactly the same way both in Italian and Spanish, Maria es una chica muy simpatica (Maria è una ragazza molto simpatica - Mary is such a nice girl), but, pace Ron, not in English where its meaning is far more restricted.

PeterG

[PeterG]

I have been in Ireland last month, in an organised tour.
I've seen that they started to use italian words for different drinks with some coffee in them.
Latte, that means milk and comes from our caffelatte=coffee and milk. It is a big glass filled with a very loooooong coffee and some milk.
Capuccino hasn't anything to do with ours. It's made using a lot of water, while in Triest we put an espresso in a small cup or in a small glass and pour some hot milk on it.

My wife and I often go to Nottingham for the day by train. We get in around 10.30 so exceptionally to save time we have a very early and quick lunch, a full English breakfast at a department store.

Last time, after serving the food, the girl asked me if I wanted anything to drink. "Yes", I said, "a coffee please". To which she asked "A latte?". I was tempted to say "No, not milk. I want a coffee" but I chickened out and lamely asked "What's that?", much to the embarrassment of my wife, as the girl, somewhat amused, explained to the old man before her that it was a coffee with hot milk. Ah, these modern linguists!

PeterG

[serlilian]

I'm always afraid when I find an italian word in another language, because I'm sure it will mean something different than what I'm expecting.

[serlilian]

At school, our English teacher told us that she had seen in an italian coffee bar: "Five o'clock a tutte le ore": They wanted to say "Five o'clock tea at any time", but they didn't write the word "tea". So in that coffe bar..... it was always 5 o'clock.

[PeterG]

Here is another peculiarity of Italian (and Triestin) and English, the use of capital letters (maiuscoli).

In English the convention is that all titles of books, songs, films, etc, are written with capitalised words: A Tale Of Two Cities; For Whom The Bell Tolls; Collins English Dictionary - but not so in Italian: I promessi sposi; Le avventure di Pinocchio; la seconda guerra mondiale terminò nel 1945 (the Second World War ended in 1945).

Names of countries are capitalised in both languages, but not words derived from them: parla italiano (he speaks Italian); sono tedeschi (they are German); alla moda francese (in the French style).

The personal pronoun io is capitalised in English:I, but you isn't - whereas the polite you, Lei, in Italian is: Signor Smith, Lei parla italiano bene benchè con un leggero accento inglese (Mr Smith, you speak Italian well, though with a slight English accent).

Strange how these differing conventions have grown.

PeterG

[serlilian]

Yes, very strange.

Yesterday I had to write the word "English" and I had to check, because I wasn't sure if I had to use a capital letter.