A British soldier remembers Trieste in 1946

Regole del forum
Collegamenti al regolamento del forum in varie lingue ed alle norme sulla privacy in italiano.
Avatar utente
Ron
ixolan
ixolan
Messaggi: 244
Iscritto il: mer 4 ott 2006, 7:10
Località: London, England

Globoclnik was in the USA

Messaggio da Ron »

Hi Ron,
there are rumors that Globoclnik reached America and lived very rich. Can be truth?
Cheers Claudio
Hi Claudio

I thought we had established that Globoclnik was very dead ?

See if you can find anything about these "rumours" and report back here on this thread.

I'm sure Macondo would also be very interested :lol:

Ciao !

Ron


As a British soldier, I was stationed in the Trieste area from October 1945 until January 1947
claudio bonifacio
vilegiante
vilegiante
Messaggi: 43
Iscritto il: gio 12 feb 2009, 16:44

Re: Globoclnik was in the USA

Messaggio da claudio bonifacio »

Ron ha scritto:
Hi Ron,
there are rumors that Globoclnik reached America and lived very rich. Can be truth?
Cheers Claudio
Hi Claudio

I thought we had established that Globoclnik was very dead ?

See if you can find anything about these "rumours" and report back here on this thread.

I'm sure Macondo would also be very interested :lol:

Ciao !

Ron
OK, just let me check.


Avatar utente
macondo
Distinto
Distinto
Messaggi: 2669
Iscritto il: dom 25 dic 2005, 18:54
Località: London, UK

Messaggio da macondo »

Claudio

I am quite positive in stating that Globocnik died by committing suicide on the 31th May 1945.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Odilo_Globocnik

There are few 'conspiracy theories' of him living the high life in LA, California after been 'recruited' by some Intelligence Agencies from the Western powers. No proof has been ever provided. Instead, his death was very well documented by a large number of witnesses, photos and official reports.

These rumours about his survival have been initially spread by some negationist pseudo-writer-cum-historian in order to challenge the (alleged) superior moral grounds of the WWII victors.


Ursus Canadiensis
ixolan
ixolan
Messaggi: 371
Iscritto il: ven 16 gen 2009, 19:04
Località: BC, Canada

Messaggio da Ursus Canadiensis »

macondo ha scritto:Claudio

I am quite positive in stating that Globocnik died by committing suicide on the 31th May 1945.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Odilo_Globocnik

There are few 'conspiracy theories' of him living the high life in LA, California after been 'recruited' by some Intelligence Agencies from the Western powers. No proof has been ever provided. Instead, his death was very well documented by a large number of witnesses, photos and official reports.

These rumours about his survival have been initially spread by some negationist pseudo-writer-cum-historian in order to challenge the (alleged) superior moral grounds of the WWII victors.
If memory serves me right, Macondo, Globocnink was either sentenced, awaiting hanging or was about to be sentenced; either case, he committed suicide by breaking a window pane and ingesting shards of glass.

Of course, that being the uncommon and, to state the obvious, perfectly gory way of kicking the bucket, it sprouted all kinds of rumours of cabala plots and what have you. Main thing though, he received his "comeuppance " for lack of a more appropriate term.

On a personal note, I must admit that I feel more upset if I accidentally step on a garden worm than at the thought of his death.

Arnie


If at first you don't succeed, try reading the instruction manual.
Capuzi garbi

Messaggio da Capuzi garbi »

Arnie Coburg ha scritto:...On a personal note, I must admit that I feel more upset if I accidentally step on a garden worm than at the thought of his death.

Arnie
Me too, much much more :-D


Ursus Canadiensis
ixolan
ixolan
Messaggi: 371
Iscritto il: ven 16 gen 2009, 19:04
Località: BC, Canada

Messaggio da Ursus Canadiensis »

Capuzi garbi ha scritto:
Arnie Coburg ha scritto:...On a personal note, I must admit that I feel more upset if I accidentally step on a garden worm than at the thought of his death.

Arnie
Me too, much much more :-D
With humble excuses to our garden wigglies!

Arnie


If at first you don't succeed, try reading the instruction manual.
Avatar utente
Ron
ixolan
ixolan
Messaggi: 244
Iscritto il: mer 4 ott 2006, 7:10
Località: London, England

Globocnick - more info posted onto another website by Ron

Messaggio da Ron »

The internet is truly a wondrous affair and one of its major joys is when one stumbles across an item to do with research long since forgotten.
On the BBC WW2 website, I’d written a fair piece about my experiences in Austria at the closing stages of the war and the small part that my Regiment, the 4th QOH had played in rounding up German war criminals. BBC - WW2 People's War - Life in Wartime Austria: 4th Queen's Own Hussars July to August 1945

<http://www.bbc.co.uk/ww2peopleswar/stor ... 5517.shtml>

Yesterday I was browsing the internet, came across a story on a website called ISTRIANET.ORG and it had a large piece on Globocnik.
Who was Globocnik, I hear you ask?…. I hasten to explain.
Globocnik was a particularly nasty piece of work, one time Gauleiter of Austria and when the war finished in Austria in May 1945 he was on the Allied list of ex SS who were to be detained on sight. One of the reasons for his notoriety was that he was known to have buried SS Gold to avoid its discovery.

http://www.istrianet.org/istria/hist...bocnik-bio.htm

<http://www.istrianet.org/istria/history ... ik-bio.htm>

The article on the ISTRIANET site goes as follows:
Different stories of Globocniks' capture and subsequent death have emerged. The one most commonly cited is that Globocnik committed suicide at about 11:30 a.m. the same day outside the small prison, 100 m west of the castle in Paternion. His body was photographed, together with his three comrades [pictured right], then said to be quickly buried and "confirmed" by poorly faked photographs of his body.
A November 1996 report by Erwin H. Lerner describes the capture by the 4th Queen's Own Hussars of the 56th ("London") Division of Globocnik in Austria. The 4th Hussars were stationed in Italy as part of XIII Corps, commanded by Lt. Gen. Sir John Harding. They had no business in Austria, but were apparently working with the 78th Division and a Field Security Service unit based in Villach. Their target was not even Globocnik, but the Gauleiter of Carinthia, Dr. Friedrich Rainer.
The fact that British units from Italy were involved in the capture of Globocnik may have led Michael Elkins and others to conclude that the men in British uniforms were avengers from the Jewish Brigade Group. Howard Blum has even written a whole book about it, but, to his credit he did not attribute Globocnik's death to these Jewish avengers.
Lerner wrote of the capture:
"Globocnik posing as an engineer in hiding from Partisans told a very plausible story, and had clearly thought out his cover very carefully. The whole party was marched off ... and taken to the HQ 4 Hussars in Paternion.
"Globocnik was left by himself for some time. He had not up to this time been challenged with his true identity. He betrayed himself by half answering a summons shouted in his real name, and was thereupon told that we knew who he was. Still professing innocence he was marched away, but he had gone only some 150 yards when he collapsed and quietly died from hydrocyanic poisoning. It is almost certain that the glass ampoule was under his tongue from the time of his early morning, arrest as all prisoners were searched for poison, and one ampoule discovered on SS Sturmbannfuhrer Lerfh.
"Rainer later confirmed that the dead man was in fact Globocnik. "At 1230 hours all the prisoners were handed over to Provost Office, 78 Division for disposal through 88 FSS."
In yet another story, it is said that Globocnik swapped some of his gold and jewels

I now give the relevant excerpt from the Regimental Diaries of the 4th QOH for 31/5/1945

0430 – The party (4th Hussars) arrived at the hut.
0500 – Hut surrounded.
0510 – The door at the front was opened by Major Ramsey who had entered through a loft window. The door at the back was forced by Major Quarmby and Lt Hedley. Four men were found in the front of the house. Interrogation began at once and all men except the Gauleiter and SS Sturmbannfuhrer Lerch denied any knowledge of the SS. The women were allowed to remain in the hut, but arrangements are in hand (1430 hours) to arrest them. Dr Rainer, Lerch, three unidentified suspects and a fourth man who gave references in KLAGENFURT were brought down to the prison at PATERNION.
0715 – Schutz re-arrested on accusation of Kummerer.
1130 – The man suspected of being Glovocnik was trapped into acknowledging his name by a slight movement of his head when Major Ramsey shouted his name across the courtyard. He was ordered into arrest and poisoned himself with Prussic acid while walking the 150 yards between the Castle yard and the prison. Capt MM Leigh RAMC attempted to revive him but was unsuccessful. It was considered that he had had this poison concealed in his mouth from the moment in which the first alarm was raised at the hut as he consistently refused all form of refreshment. Three suspects on viewing the body confessed their identities as:-Sturmbannfuhrer der SS Michaelson,SS Sturmbannfuhrer Hoffle,Oberscharfuhrer Karl Hellesberger SS in TRIESTE.
1245 – all eight prisoners were removed by Capt Willett, leaving only Schutz in detention and under further investigation.

Wikipedia gives both versions of his ultimate death:
Odilo Globocnik - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Odilo_Globocnik>


Read all about it here:
http://www.ww2talk.com/forum/holocaust/ ... post157250


As a British soldier, I was stationed in the Trieste area from October 1945 until January 1947
Avatar utente
macondo
Distinto
Distinto
Messaggi: 2669
Iscritto il: dom 25 dic 2005, 18:54
Località: London, UK

Messaggio da macondo »

There are some more and detailed documents relating the capture and death of Odilo Globocnik and all concur with the extract reported by Ron.

Globocnik had indeed some forged documents and he wasn't arrested immediately but left under escort in the yard of Paternon Castle, while calls were made to Klagenfurt to check his identity.
Kummerer was an SS who served in Trieste and knew quite well who Globocnik was. He was detained a couple a day before by a British patrol and in order to get released by a possible long detention, he offered himself as an informer and told his interrogators to know where a group of high rank officers were hiding. Kummerer knew that because few days before he sought shelter on that hut, but was turned back due to alleged overcrowding.
This information eventually resulted on the raid at the mountain hut.
When the detained party was brought at the Castle, the same Kummerer easily recognized his former boss (Globocnik) and told the British at Paternon so...Only then, and to confirm further the identification, a British officer shout Globocnik name. A slight hesitation in his step was the final proof of his identity. Challenged, he was led away but few minutes later he broke the cyanide vial in his mouth and died immediately afterward.
Ultima modifica di macondo il lun 16 feb 2009, 10:42, modificato 1 volta in totale.


Avatar utente
macondo
Distinto
Distinto
Messaggi: 2669
Iscritto il: dom 25 dic 2005, 18:54
Località: London, UK

Messaggio da macondo »

To clear the air about the possible survival of Globocnick there are few facts to take in consideration.
1) There were too many witnesses present. On top the couple of dozen (or more) British officers and soldiers, there are also some civilians who saw the suicide when it happened.
2) The other detainees, including his lifetime friend Gauleiter Reiner, recognized the body.
3) Since then, these witnesses never dismissed the official version.
4) The British had no business to try to recycle former war criminals into the Intelligence services. It will be the Americans that would do so at the start of the Cold War, several months down the road...
5) Suggesting that Globocnik bought his freedom doesn't make any sense. It would take much more than few hours to buy off ALL of the witnesses. He didn't have any valuable with him (a part of the sum of 1 million lire found in the hut already accounted in the arrest report) and the promise of an unproven 'buried treasure' would not probably be enough to secure his release.

And regarding the myth of a buried or hidden treasure I would say the follow. It is out of any doubt that Globocnik made a fortune with the valuables taken from his victims. However, he had already (in his circle) the reputation of being greedy and dishonest, being still under investigation for some dodgy financial activities during the time before the war while he was Gauleiter of Vienna. It would be extremely foolish, and risky, for him to keep the boot while he was moving around Europe.

If a hidden treasure ever existed, it would most likely 'buried' deep in a vault of a Swiss bank.


Avatar utente
AdlerTS
cavalier del forum
cavalier del forum
Messaggi: 9561
Iscritto il: mar 27 dic 2005, 21:35
Località: mail: adlerts[at]email.it

Messaggio da AdlerTS »

I've found an interesting web site with some scan of canadian newspaper from '40s and '50s related to Trieste here . (please type Trieste at prompt)


Mal no far, paura no gaver.
Avatar utente
Ron
ixolan
ixolan
Messaggi: 244
Iscritto il: mer 4 ott 2006, 7:10
Località: London, England

Interesting site

Messaggio da Ron »

Adler

A good find !

I entered Churchill & Hussars into the search box and found a story of Churchill visiting my unit in the desert but this was well before I joined them and I already have pictures of this event.

Well worth a look so thanks for your notification.

Regards

Ron


As a British soldier, I was stationed in the Trieste area from October 1945 until January 1947
Avatar utente
AdlerTS
cavalier del forum
cavalier del forum
Messaggi: 9561
Iscritto il: mar 27 dic 2005, 21:35
Località: mail: adlerts[at]email.it

Messaggio da AdlerTS »

Hi Ron,

you probably did not see the picture in the italian section:

Immagine

can you help us in finding out any feasible date for this image ?

We suppose that it is between 1945 and '47 due to the fact that during the "free territory" period the italian flag was not in use.


Mal no far, paura no gaver.
Avatar utente
Ron
ixolan
ixolan
Messaggi: 244
Iscritto il: mer 4 ott 2006, 7:10
Località: London, England

Messaggio da Ron »

Hi !

I will post this on a WW2 forum and let you know if anyone comes up with an answer

Ron


As a British soldier, I was stationed in the Trieste area from October 1945 until January 1947
MUSTANGS13
vilegiante
vilegiante
Messaggi: 93
Iscritto il: mar 6 giu 2006, 14:45

Messaggio da MUSTANGS13 »

i gave an answer on the "italian post" ....
i don't think that it is a new zealand flag .... no stars on the flag.
the red flag with union jack in the corner is for merchant navy so i don't think they exposed that unless there were no other flags available .... so this could mean that this happended just after the yugoslavian troops left ... !?
I saw on a book of flags and on wikipedia that there is the flag called "blue ensign" used for territories conected to uk ..... make sense ?

Ciao


Avatar utente
Ron
ixolan
ixolan
Messaggi: 244
Iscritto il: mer 4 ott 2006, 7:10
Località: London, England

Messaggio da Ron »

I posted the original photo onto a WW2 site to which I belong.

Here is the link, go have a look: http://www.ww2talk.com/forum/italy/2087 ... 945-a.html


As a British soldier, I was stationed in the Trieste area from October 1945 until January 1947
Avatar utente
AdlerTS
cavalier del forum
cavalier del forum
Messaggi: 9561
Iscritto il: mar 27 dic 2005, 21:35
Località: mail: adlerts[at]email.it

Messaggio da AdlerTS »

Thanks a lot Ron :-)

a friend of this forum sent me an email (in Italian ) with "his" explanation that I try to translate for you (pls. forgive my poor English):

- The jeep is dirty, but later they were usually clean to give evidence that the Allies were not "partigiani"

- Flags seems to be "home made" and there is not a Yugoslavian one

- There are no sentinels at the entrance

- On 29 April, maybe 30 the Prefettura palace was held by the brigata “Pisoni” (CVL) and the Italian flag was supplied by a man from Lloyd

- Between 30 April and the first of May Germans shoot from the sea to the square, so the hole in the Italian flag can results from this shooting

- On 2nd May, about 4 pm the first New Zealand Division came into the Square. Col.Fonda Savio had to meet Gen Freyberg in Grignano and he came back to Prefetura with a jeep (the dirty one ?)

- Between 7 and 8 pm the Yugoslavian came down and take off the Italian flag putting the red-white-blue one on the Prefettura balcony:

Due to all this data, the picture has to be made between 4 pm and 7 pm of May 2nd 1945 and looking at the shadow probably about 5 pm

If Peter can make a better translation, the original words can be found here

Please let me know if this explanation can be feasible also from your side :-)


Mal no far, paura no gaver.
Avatar utente
Ron
ixolan
ixolan
Messaggi: 244
Iscritto il: mer 4 ott 2006, 7:10
Località: London, England

Re: A British soldier remembers Trieste in 1946

Messaggio da Ron »

Ciao !

Just to let you all know that I am still around in my 90th year and would dearly like to know if Maria is still in toch with this website.

Auguri

Ron


As a British soldier, I was stationed in the Trieste area from October 1945 until January 1947
Avatar utente
Nona Picia
cavalier del forum
cavalier del forum
Messaggi: 10977
Iscritto il: ven 20 gen 2006, 15:08
Località: Trieste - Rozzol

Re: A British soldier remembers Trieste in 1946

Messaggio da Nona Picia »

Tanti auguri Ron! :-OkelPic5060:


Ciao ciao
Trova un minuto per pensare, trova un minuto per pregare,
trova un minuto per ridere.
"MADRE TERESA"

"La Mama l’è talmen un tesor de valur che l’ha vorüda anche Noster Signur" .....
nanaia
ixolan
ixolan
Messaggi: 468
Iscritto il: dom 6 ago 2006, 7:39
Località: trieste

Re: A British soldier remembers Trieste in 1946

Messaggio da nanaia »

Hi Ron! Happy birthday from the deep of my heart! As to Maria (if you mean the one who first got you in touch with this forum), nobody has had any news from her for years by now. Last time I heard her (she called me on the phone from Australia) was a lot of years ago and all I could understand was she had no longer a pc.
If you meant me, here I am, always remembering with the utmost pleasure meeting Nitta and you in Trieste in 2006.
Again my best wishes to dear Nitta and you!
Maria (aka nanaia:-))

P.S. The tram di Opicina is always out of service:-(((((


Avatar utente
Ron
ixolan
ixolan
Messaggi: 244
Iscritto il: mer 4 ott 2006, 7:10
Località: London, England

Re: A British soldier remembers Trieste in 1946

Messaggio da Ron »

Maria

Thankyou for your good wishes.

I was actually referring to the "other" Maria and I thank you for the information.

I do, however, have fond memories of Nita & I meeting up with you in Triesste and she joins me in wishing you and your family a very Happy New Year.

All best wishes

Ron


As a British soldier, I was stationed in the Trieste area from October 1945 until January 1947

Torna a “English section”