Practice your English. Help and advice.

[Ron]

Peter, e tutti

I know that there have been times on this site when some of the English speaking Italians and all of the English based members have winced at my terrible attempts at colloquial Italian.

In my defence and to be totally honest, I havn't bought an English/Italian dictionary for years and when I just looked at one of my phrase books I can see the last reprint was in 1982 !

I was amused to see that in my this much battered copy of "Italiano Semplificato" (by Eugene Jackson & Joseph Lopreato) the phrase "Arriverderci, amico mio" is translated as "Goodby, old chap"

[macondo]

Well, does someone has read that book in english? ( it was Mao II by Don De Lillo)
Second question: can you guess the original English - well, American- phrase that the translator wrote as Diamoci del tu ?
I have no idea...

Betta, I am going to read the book for you and give you an answer...

I love De Lillo, that I have discovered when I read Underworld, mistakenly thinking to be a Cosa Nostra story . Great American writer.

[Coce]

Mr. Ghiringhelli, you must live in a Cocoon of Englishsness because I am sure that if I addressed any person in the wide US, Canada, Great Britain,
Australia, New Zealand ecc...With the phrases I mentioned above they would understand that I wanted to be friendly, put them at ease, and treat
on a par level with me, and that was meant with "Diamoci del Tu". What do you think? Ciao Peter. Coce

[PeterG]

Mr. Ghiringhelli, you must live in a Cocoon of Englishsness because I am sure that if I addressed any person in the wide US, Canada, Great Britain, Australia, New Zealand ecc...With the phrases I mentioned above they would understand that I wanted to be friendly, put them at ease, and treat on a par level with me, and that was meant with "Diamoci del Tu". What do you think? Ciao Peter. Coce

'Mr' Coce I think you are referring to your phrase given here:

"Diamoci del tu", but you can use the phrase "Let us speak to each other as Pals" or 'As Mates" but they tend to be both a sort of slang expressions

I must confess, I've never thought of myself as living in a cocoon. Although, cocooned or not, I do have a fairly wide knowledge of English and English slang.

But we learn every day. The first time I met with the charming expression "Let us speak as pals" was when you posted it above. Since both the phrase and the notion are foreign to me, could you be a pal and explain how one's speech differs after the offer is accepted from what it was before?

Peter, always friendly

[Coce]

Peter, I am "Tickle Pink" (Very Happy) to be your pal. We all agreed that there is not an English equivalent to "Diamoci del Tu" but there is an implication of a willingness to pose in the relationship a friendly or "Paly"or "Matey" feeling in to it, and although in English the wording of the speech does not change, it is the feeling in the relationship that changes.
Am I right ? That was the implication of "Diamoci del Tu" Ciao Coce

[PeterG]

Coce

I am delighted that you have dropped the Mr and that we are back on first name terms.

Whilst there can be no translation of diamoci del tu I do agree that it implies more than a change of grammatical mode, in that it is the beginning of a closer bond between friends. But the grammatical mode cannot be swept aside, for it entails a change in every verb - the second person rather than the third singular. This does not happen in English because there is no equivalent of Lei, or of Ella for that matter.

As for dar del tu , where the tu is not mutual, such as in child/adult and supposedly inferior/superior relationships, there is again no grammatical eqiuivalent in English.

Incidentally, is tu still used by Italian officers to other ranks in the armed forces eliciting Lei in response? If so, here there is a similarity in that all British non-commissioned personnel have to address officers with Sir, and not just once but practically in every phrase and mainly to restrict replies to Yes, Sir!, No, Sir!

Peter

[PeterG]

benissimo avvocato. sarò ad attenderLa would be more formal, for the second it sounds strange to me: I'd say:
Signor Vincenzo, che piacere vederLa! or ho visto il signor Vincenzo, è stato proprio un piacere rivederlo

Babtriestina

I was intrigued by your comment on the use of lo and la in the above examples.

I therefore asked a friend in Vicenza who trained as a teacher and currently tutors children privately. I gave her the example of our now famous Signor Vincenzo. Her response to my Ah, signor Vincenzo, che piacere rivederlo was 'I have never heard anything so absurd in my life, Peter, it is always rivedarla.

I then told her that the example and advice came from Franco Fochi in his 1966 bookL'italian facile - Guida allo scrivere e al parlare. At this she said 'Well if it's Fochi he probably is correct but that was in 1966 when I was a young child. personally I have never heard that form used.'

So times have indeed changed.

Fochi, I see, died in 2007 http://www.fondazioneitaliani.it/index. ... &task=view

Peter

[babatriestina]

well, I was attending an Italian grammar school in 1966 and nobody taught me an espression like M Vincenzo, che contento sono di vederlo!
if i say vederla, I'm talking to M Vincenzo, if I say vederlo, I'm talking to someone elso about M Vincenzo.
The form feminine even addressed to a man is explained with the reference to a Sua eccellenza or something similar.
Caro Peter, sarò felice di avere il piacere di incontrarLa personalmente! di incontrare Vossignoria, la Sua cara persona!!
if this is too formal, I'd say Caro Peter, sarò felice di incontrarci di persona , is a way to avoid this curious expression of a la related to a man, but it is slighter familiar. I' wouldn't say the later expression to a superior.
( it's the first time I heard the name of M Fochi)

[PeterG]

well, I was attending an Italian grammar school in 1966 and nobody taught me an espression like M Vincenzo, che contento sono di vederlo! ... ( it's the first time I heard the name of M Fochi)

Babatriestina

Meet Franco Fochi

Peter

[babatriestina]

Mr. Fochi, I'm glad to meet you for the first time

Searching with google, I find this article where M Fochi is a fan of the qual'è with the apostrophe, which for all my teachers was a big mistake.

Franco Fochi sostiene che si deve scrivere qual'è

I dont' trust that fellow.

[sono piccolo ma crescero]

I agree with Babatriestina and I'll never use "M. Vincenzo che piacere rivederlo". He who says such a sentence is a person who tries to speak in a well educated way but is not able to do it (as I am doing with my English ).

[PeterG]

M Fochi is a fan of the qual'è with the apostrophe, which for all my teachers was a big mistake.

Franco Fochi sostiene che si deve scrivere qual'è

I dont' trust that fellow.

Ah, but you should quote him in full, Babatriestina:

Franco Fochi sostiene che si deve scrivere qual'è ma non condanna come errore qual è; insomma egli ha messo o rimesso di moda un'altra duplice grafia del patrio idioma.

Peter

[babatriestina]

Ah, but you should quote him in full, Babatriestina:

Franco Fochi sostiene che si deve scrivere qual'è ma non condanna come errore qual è; insomma egli ha messo o rimesso di moda un'altra duplice grafia del patrio idioma.

Peter

there'something illogical between the word "si deve" and "non condanna come errore" the second one.
If one must ( si deve) , one cannot do otherwise..
logic, Mr. Watson!
the phrase is not from Fochi, but from the article
( in my opinion, i'ts exactly the opposite way: one must write qual è and who writes qual'è is generally a poor writer, not a fan of Mr. Fochi)

[PeterG]

there'something illogical between the word "si deve" and "non condanna come errore" the second one.
If one must ( si deve) , one cannot do otherwise..
logic, Mr. Watson!
the phrase is not from Fochi, but from the article
( in my opinion, i'ts exactly the opposite way: one must write qual è and who writes qual'è is generally a poor writer, not a fan of Mr. Fochi)

There I agree with you. That si deve should be sarebbe meglio in that particular sentence, making it consistent with non condanna come errore. But the entire sentence is not felicitous, it would be better expressed by Franco Fochi favorisce 'qual' è' ma non condanna 'qual è'. Though, as you say, that is not Fochi's sentence.

Peter

[babatriestina]

This is a recent grammar for the secondary schools, 1996 , Marcello Marinucci La lingua italiana p 168:

FORME REVERENZIALI O DI CORTESIA
Le e la sono rispettivamente usati come complemento di termine e come complemento oggetto e riferiti a persona del sesso maschile o femminile (spesso la deferenza viene sottolineata dall'uso dell'iniziale maiuscola)
gentile avvocato, mi è gradita l'occasione per esprimerle i sensi della mia stima
Cara signora, la invito a partecipare
Signor Presidente, La informiamo che le Sue decisioni sono da noi tutti condivise
L'uso dell'allocutivo vi, riferito a una singola persona, sopravvive solo in alcune parlate regionali, soprattutto centro-meridionali, e nel linguaggio commerciale
Vi prego di farmi pervenire al più presto la merce ordinatavi via fax

This is, IMHO, the most realistic description

[PeterG]

This is, IMHO, the most realistic description

Babatriestina

Many thanks for that clear exposition by Marcello Marinucci. However, since this particular thread is ostensibly about English, could I very respectfully mention that we would not use the adjective realistic in this context. Rather, we would say This, IMHO, correctly reflects current usage.

As for Qual'è and Qual è I have attached Franco Fochi's extensive views on the matter. I was amused to see that a Roman woman in 1959 was so incensed at the use of an apostrophe in Qual'è il motivo?, the title of a TV programme, that she phoned R.A.I. every evening for four consecutive weeks registering her vexation.

Peter

[babatriestina]

However, since this particular thread is ostensibly about English, could I very respectfully mention that we would not use the adjective realistic in this context. Rather, we would say This, IMHO, correctly reflects current usage.

I'm very grateful for the suggestion, I was not sure which was the correct english expression.

[serlilian]

Interesting posts.

Nothing else to say? Where are the teachers gone?

I would like to improve my english.

[dcobau]

ciao serlillian,

maybe if you ask a specific question somebody will answer

cheers

Dave

[serlilian]

Thanks Dave,
for now I haven't anything to ask.
But now the topic is up. Maybe someone else will find a question.